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| Author: | hummingbird [ Fri Apr 22, 2016 1:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Hide glue newbe |
Hello everyone I would like to try using hide glue but I have never used it before. I live in Ottawa Ontario and I found this at lee valley http://www.leevalley.com/en/Wood/page.aspx?p=20002&cat=1,110,42965&ap=1 Has anyone in this area used this product? Is it appropriate for luthery? Would the lower number have a longer set time so I could use it for bindings? |
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| Author: | Mike Collins [ Fri Apr 22, 2016 1:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hide glue newbe |
Fish glue! Get some from Stew Mac. Mike |
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| Author: | meddlingfool [ Fri Apr 22, 2016 1:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hide glue newbe |
I use the granular stuff from them. |
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| Author: | hummingbird [ Fri Apr 22, 2016 1:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hide glue newbe |
One thing that is confusing me is the granular vs pearl. Also I see stewmac sells Belen's 164g for luthery but the granular from lee valley is 260g, and the pearl is 150g |
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| Author: | Ken Lewis [ Fri Apr 22, 2016 6:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hide glue newbe |
I use the LV granular glue. A $10 crock-pot from Wal Mart keeps it at 145 deg. A hot plate and/or heat gun to pre heat the parts helps extend clamp time. Dry fit run through cuts down on do-overs. Ken |
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| Author: | DennisK [ Fri Apr 22, 2016 10:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hide glue newbe |
hummingbird wrote: One thing that is confusing me is the granular vs pearl. Also I see stewmac sells Belen's 164g for luthery but the granular from lee valley is 260g, and the pearl is 150g Granular versus pearl doesn't matter. It's gonna be liquid as soon as you hydrate and heat it. The gram strength does matter somewhat. I like LMI's 192g. I used Behlen's on my first few, and it works fine too, but it smells more like a dead animal. I know some people like to use high strength for bridges, but IMO it's not necessary. The fit is what's important. And getting it clamped before it gels. High strength glue gels more quickly, so you're more likely to have failures from that than you are from weaker glue. Especially on brittle woods like cedar and redwood, where the natural "glue" between wood fibers is far weaker than anything you're going to be sticking to it. 150g hide glue will probably still peel up a bunch of fibers from spruce rather than failing right at the glue line, so I don't really see the point in using higher strength. |
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| Author: | Woodie G [ Sat Apr 23, 2016 7:32 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hide glue newbe |
The 192 gram strength high clarity is used here for everything except components which will be under constant, relatively high load, like bridges - these get 315 gram strength glue. The boss had a rash (two) of bridge failures early on, and none since going to the higher gram strength. Side benefit for the the 315 g is much less clamping time - we have gone with as little as 6 hours from bridge on guitar to string-up. For bindings, a heat gun works to remelt hide on linings or other joints which need a little more open time...apply glue, add hot air, and then tape while holding the section in place...as soon as the glue gels, move to the next section. We use fish and CA for binding as well - the principal shortcoming for fish is sensitivity to high relative humidity, but under finish, the joint is well sealed. CA get used for some very complex binding schemes, and whenever shell or radial purfling is used. The one disadvantage to using CA for shell is for fretboard inlay, where eventual refrets mean that it is exceptionally hard to remove them prior to leveling. Granular glues are commonly available, and we have not found much in the way of variety in makers, despite the price differences...Behlens, Brooklyn Tool Company, Highland Hardware, and Stewart MacDonald are all repackaged Milligan & Higgins glue. We used to get 5 lbs of 192 g HC from Tools for Working Wood for $32, but they have gone to an outside company to repackage and more than doubled prices. Highland Hardware used to be very inexpensive, but now carries only 192 g standard for about $38 for 5 lbs. Fish glue is similar - Norland is the only real game in town, and repackagers abound- a pint from Lee Valley is about $19 delivered...or buy a gallon directly from Norland for $40 delivered. Fish has a shelf life, so the smaller quantity can be a better bet. Finally - as a reward for reading this far, please add your name to the linked petition for cruelty-free hide glue practices...we can all hope that the animal glue industry listens. https://blog.lostartpress.com/2014/09/17/a-petition-for-cruelty-free-hide-glue/ |
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| Author: | Clay S. [ Sat Apr 23, 2016 9:23 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hide glue newbe |
https://blog.lostartpress.com/2014/09/1 ... hide-glue/ I enjoyed the comments. |
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| Author: | hummingbird [ Sat Apr 23, 2016 11:53 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hide glue newbe |
If I mix the granular 260g with the pearl 150g 50/50 will I get 205g? |
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| Author: | ChuckH [ Sun Apr 24, 2016 11:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hide glue newbe |
We use 315 gram at Marchione Guitars and also use it for everything in my home shop. I really can't tell a faster gel time between the 315 and the 192. We use a quartz heater to warm the area and also warm the parts being glued. You have plenty of time to work. Just don't be scared of it, it's just glue. If you mess up then use a hot pallet knife to reflow the glue area. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk |
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| Author: | Colin North [ Mon Apr 25, 2016 4:17 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hide glue newbe |
hummingbird wrote: If I mix the granular 260g with the pearl 150g 50/50 will I get 205g? I have read (But can't recall at the moment where), yes. |
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| Author: | Terence Kennedy [ Mon Apr 25, 2016 11:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hide glue newbe |
I have used the 192gm high clarity stuff from LMI for 10 years. Seems to work fine. Is the 315 definitely stronger Chuck? I usually put one of my heating blankets on the bench and using a surface thermometer set it around 180 or so and place the parts to be glued on it. Warm the other surface with a heat gun. I like the fast tack time for braces and bridge plates and love it for joining plates with the tape method. I need to try fish sometime. I still close the box with Tightbond Extend. |
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| Author: | Woodie G [ Mon Apr 25, 2016 1:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hide glue newbe |
While I am fairly certain no one will mistake me for Mr. Huchinson (he's taller...that's it), we did some measurements with non-contact thermometers on both 192g and 315g hide glue, with the former gelling about 95 deg F and and the later close to 115 deg F. That difference is enough to require heaters for the work area or serious preheating of components, so we use 315g only when we can reliably close the assembly prior to gel or successfully reheat above the gel temperature. In practice, that means heating bridges to about 130-135 deg F for use, which gives an extended open time of about 5 minutes at the exposed edges of the joint (enough time even for me to get things under pressure, and more than enough time for the boss to get the glue-up done and a quick run to the coffee shop). The big difference in terms of what we see with 192g and 315g is not strength (both are stronger than necessary, with joint strength more a function of how the joint is made than the adhesive), but instead, the reduced clamping time and greater reliability seen in highly stressed joints glued with 315g. As mentioned earlier in the thread, since going to 315g for bridges, we clamp for as little as 4 hours (but usually 8 hours), and have strung up at 6 hours without issue. Using identical techniques for joint prep and extended clamping time, 192g hide glue proved to be hit-or-miss on bridges (but perfectly adequate elsewhere). On closing boxes with hide glue - Mr. Proulx seems to be able to do it without any additional heat, but we use a heat gun to warm the lining prior to glue application, again to flow the already applied glue prior to closing, and then once again once the box is closed and clamped with an truly excessive number of go-bars to allow any areas that may have begun to gel to see a nice, consistently thin glue line. This takes far longer to describe than to do...with two people working, it's a few minutes from start (warm the lining) to finish (slow pass around the guitar to warm the seam between sides and top, looking for a few beads of squeeze out). |
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